iRachel and Jessica discuss law firm management and attorney-client relationship-building in the third episode of the Legal News Reach podcast with Jennifer Keller and Adam Severson with Baker, Donelson, Bearman, Caldwell & Berkowitz, PC.
Read on below for a transcript of our discussion, transcribed by artifical intelligence:
Rachel
Hello, and welcome to Legal News Reach, the official podcast for the National Law Review. Stay tuned for discussion on the latest trends in legal marketing, SEO law firm best practices and more.
Rachel
I'm Rachel
Jess
And I'm Jess. We're the hosts for legal news reach and web content specialists here at the National Law Review.
Rachel
In this episode, we're excited to talk to Jennifer Keller and Adam Severson with Baker Donelson. So Jennifer and Adam, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?
Jennifer
Sure, sure. And thanks so much for having us. Again, I'm Jennifer Keller, the president and chief operating officer of Baker Donelson. In that role I manage the provision of legal services through our departments and practice groups. I also manage our firm's professional development, recruiting and marketing and business development functions. And I've been with the firm and since I got out of law school.
Adam Severson
And I'm Adam Severson, I'm the firm's chief marketing and business development officer. I'm in Nashville, Tennessee, and I've been with the firm 10 years coming up in January and prior to that held similar leadership roles at a couple other Amlaw 100 firms
Rachel
We're excited to have you both on today, I'll just jump into a topic that's been weighing pretty heavily on everyone's minds for the past year, has your office found any silver linings of the pandemic? How has your office adjusted to that?
Jennifer
Well, I'll start we have 21 offices and about 650 lawyers. So certainly the pandemic has been a very interesting time for us. And I think all law firms, no matter what their size, or location, I think there have actually been a few silver linings coming out of the pandemic, I would say probably the one you would hear from most law firm leaders as the predominant one is that it has expedited the acceptance of change in a lot of areas, you know, the use of technology, remote work, or alternative work arrangements, collaboration in new and different ways, both with each other inside of firm and with our clients. So I just think in those circumstances, we were forced to pivot and didn't really have a choice. And so that acceptance of change was sped up a good bit.
Adam
Just to build on that acceptance of change. You know, I think we found ourselves, you know, in the marketing and business development team forced to think more creatively about how we position the firm, and how we collaborate and sort of a superspeed way, with our attorneys, we were one of the first firms to launch a Coronavirus Resource Center. And so to sort of launch that, and then be in a place where we did more client alerts in 45 days than we did in the prior 12 months. So the way that we had to rise to the occasion was a silver lining really, because it forced us to think creatively, but also sort of led to this kind of element of teamwork and collaboration that was really inspiring, I think, in some respects, and also exhausting.
Rachel
To sort of build off of that exhausting feeling, we sort of faced that. A lot of our clients started producing way more content than they had just recently. So we had to do a lot of work just to keep up with everything. Can you like talk a little bit more about the challenges that the firm faced and you know, creating that Coronavirus, Resource Center, getting everyone to do all those client alerts? You know, what was that process like?
Adam
Well, I think fortunately, it was helpful to demonstrate the strong infrastructure that we had in place in the firm. And so from the Resource Center perspective, you know, our web platform technology is really strong and allowed us to adapt almost real time. Some elements of the page were I don't want to say self sufficient, but like, the content was fast and furious, because the marketplace demanded so many new elements of content and changes, you know, happening pretty rapidly, people that were evaluating whether or not they should close their offices, they were, you know, trying to determine, you know, is we have a large healthcare practice. And so looking at all the considerations that they were having around their hospital systems in the life, and so our healthcare attorneys were getting asked all these questions and being peppered and so we need to then sort of share that horizon scanning in those issues, you know, with a broader client base. And so it was, you know, in many ways out of necessity to meet client demand that we were, you know, putting ourselves in that position.
Jennifer
Some of our most busy groups during that time that people whose practices really were dramatically influenced by the pandemic, Labor and Employment health care tax. Once the relief money started flowing, you know, we're meeting in many instances that eight or nine at night on Team calls pretty perpetually throughout, and some still are meeting really regularly now. And they were just doing a lot of things on those calls and producing a lot of content without even really knowing that it's content. And so part of what you really are training people to do during that interesting time is to to sort of capture the work they're already doing as content and getting that out on the platform.
Rachel
So one of the things that we're wondering now that we've sort of gone through a year of this pandemic, and law firms have made all these changes, how do you think law firm management law firm marketing, will change moving forward? Like, will these changes stick? Will they continue to change? Or how do you see that going?
Adam
Well, there's a lot to unpack first and foremost, you know, there's one constant, and that is change. And so I think that we are, you know, well aware that change will continue to occur. And I think trying to figure out and try to be a step or two ahead of some of those changes, is something that we aim to do, the way in which those take place, you know, for our clients, I think is, you know, we're a little bit derivative of those changes. So whatever change happens in the marketplace, we're then selected, hopefully, as counsel in some form or fashion after a bank decides to buy another bank, or, you know, any rollout of a new piece of legislation then leads to potentially like Health Corps, right, but the healthcare regulatory issues that our clients might be facing. And so, you know, we're trying to, you know, figure out ways to be ahead of, you know, whatever those changes are, you know, in fact, just this morning, I was talking with one of my colleagues about some of the value added programs that exist for hospital systems. And you know, that we've seen a significant uptick in how we're being called upon to look at that from a variety of different angles. And so we're now trying to proactively reach out to our clients to talk about those issues. And so we do that, in a number of ways, whether it's a virtual cup of coffee to sort of check in with somebody could be a more robust CLE program for, you know, a hospital system with a host of hospitals, where we're sort of presenting as the subject matter expert doing almost a client specific webinar. And then we're also doing, you know, programs more broadly, you know, for anybody who either happens upon Baker Donelson.com or gets an invite from, you know, our invite list for for one of those programs.
Jennifer
And I think from the law firm management perspective, there's a lot of interesting work going on right now, in analyzing the changes in law firm management that the last 18 months have brought us. I think that we definitely know that focuses on things like inclusion and mental health, and different work arrangements, different use of real estate kind of collaboration, remotely, just handling that pace of change, that's all gonna stick, you know, that's going to be with us for days to come, we're just going to have to continue to figure out how to take steps ahead in those areas. And so I think what you're gonna see looking 5 to 10 years ahead is younger, more diverse teams of leadership in firms a lot more input from what we have come to see right now is kind of non traditional leadership in firms. And they're calling it holistic law firm leadership. And so it's looking at law firm leadership is instead of just focused in on, let me look at this practice group, or this department or this silo of ours looking at how do we bring someone in, nurture them through their entire career, retain them all along the way, having that client focus in mind, certainly, as well as the firm focus in mind. And really, we know that we've got to get a lot of different viewpoints, and you know, making sure that we're able to do that. So I think we're gonna see a lot of change in law firm leadership in the days to come. And we are definitely going to need to keep the focus on the things that became really important during the pandemic.
Jess
What transitions besides the CLE offer, or your guys' webinars have you experienced in your journey to become more digital as far as like day to day tasks that you guys have?
Jennifer
You know, I would say, you know, one of the things that was so interesting, and now that I look back on it, I mean, it seems like it was a blur, but we were in one of the first areas to be really hit by the pandemic, going back into March of 2020. And we took our entire law firm from being largely office space with very few people who were working remotely more than about 20 percent of their time to working solely remotely and about 24 hours. Amazing to think about, I think it was just a miracle actually, at this point in time, but a lot of preparation and work went into being able to do that. But I would say that, you know, it was a huge transition to get really a couple of things. One is our folks to rely on a paperless system of document retention and file keeping, some of them had dipped their toes into it, and we're using it less than we would like. But we went to a scenario where they had to largely rely much more on those kinds of things. And knowing that they might not be able to get back in the office for an extended period of time, took away that safety net, that they had the big file full of 25 boxes. And so you know, we also experienced, I think, another huge change, which is our legal assistant, working remotely, and tapping into that data in the same way, and then figuring out besides just the file itself, what are all the tools that we have at our disposal to make things operate remotely. And it's not just a document retention system, it's the signature systems, it's the filing systems, it's the research systems, it's all of those things that have to come together, we have right now four to five generations of lawyers working together, one or two generations of which are extremely nimble with the technology and the rest of us had a lot to learn. And we continue to learn. So I think we are still in that transition, and are still working toward that transition. And now we're in this awkward spot where, you know, we're we we have returned to the offices, but we have a lot of remote work still going on. And so kind of figuring out the happy place where we're all going to be both from a technology and just presence standpoint, I think is a really interesting thing. But lots of transitions still to come.
Adam
You can see I'm working from my home. I find myself in the office in person, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, if you would have asked us a couple years ago, like oh, are we going to be working remotely a couple days a week? I think we all would have scoffed at the notion.
Jess
I know they started the virtual hearings, you were just talking earlier about a WebEx, these different softwares for your remote workers, probably scanning all your paperwork. And if you had paper files before, would you say that this technology has benefited the notoriously paper, book heavy law firm industry?
Jennifer
Oh, sure. I mean, you know, I think sometimes I think this has allowed us to see the benefits that can be wrought with it. You know, I shudder to think what would have happened had we had a pandemic 1015 years ago, without the luxury of the technology that we have now, without the ability to scan and DocuSign and have the the variety of platforms for the video technology that we have that allow us to do the hearings and the breakout rooms and all those things. I mean, what in the world would we have done without that. But I think also, you know, surprisingly, there's been benefit to growing the trust and interface relationships with your clients, you know, them feeling like they, they can be sure that you're going to be there no matter what the circumstance and that you're going to be able to pivot to service them, that gives them a real sense of comfort and peace about the relationship.
Adam
You know, and one thing too Jessica, that I think is important to think about - I'm always encouraging our lawyers to stay in front of their clients. And, you know, the the days of old, I mean, I remember a couple September's ago, like I flew to Chicago for a lunch meeting. And I coordinated schedules with three of my colleagues and we all flew to Chicago. And you know, we all got in a cab together and we went down to the loop and we had our meeting and we and we came back to the airport and back to our offices and in some ways kind of killed the day to go have a lunch meeting and they're benefits, certainly, you know, to that approach. But but to think now that with in some instances, like 20 minutes notice, I'm able to pull colleagues from four different offices together and be at a platform like we are right now to address whatever issues might be facing a client and brainstorm with them on how we might be able to hopefully meet and exceed you know, their expectations and help solve the problem that they're facing. Instead of the the sort of, I wouldn't say colossal waste of time, but a lot of dead time to just scheduling that lunch meeting. You know in and of itself and then coordinating travel calendar. You know, and everything else and to know that, you know, we can we can help you and service you in some ways more easily. And I don't think there's a replacement for, you know, in person contact and relationship development, but, but I think we're certainly much more mindful of, kind of everybody's like their personal time and their personal space, but also like the ability to kind of bring teams of people together, maybe more quickly than we would have thought, you know, we would have thought initially in the sort of the older way of doing things.
Jess
I'm so glad you mentioned all those points, because I know attorneys, law office staff, they're expected to be ready for clients pretty much 24 seven, I think attorneys actually work 24 seven, it's good that, you know, we can use technology to better serve clients needs, whether it's a law firm, or you know, a site like ours publishing legal news, I can see a lot of benefits as well.
Rachel
So we've talked a lot about the attorney client relationship in regards to how that has changed post COVID. And how important that is to law firm success. And I was wondering if you could just speak a little bit about what new tactics have had the biggest impact on your client relationships since the pandemic broke out?
Adam
In some respects, the tactics are exactly the same, you know, we want to be in front of our clients, you know, we created a deliverable in the marketing and business development team called the virtual client development playbook. So that playbook looked at a lot of the content that we had created for some of our clients development workshops, and try to figure out like, how can we do that better in an environment that we're in because many clients, as much as we might want to go see them for lunch, they don't want to see us to make sure that we think about that relationship one being empathetic to where our clients at, right? And so are you comfortable having lunch or coffee, and if you're not, you know, having a meeting like this is exactly something that that we want to use that playbook is really, if you didn't have lunch, then you would never see your client as sort of a ridiculous way to think about the world. And so I think we've thought differently, about, you know, how we do that and trying to be, you know, mindful, you know, we distributed Starbucks cards to a number of our attorneys to then share with their clients as a means to sort of trigger a virtual cup of coffee to talk about what they're seeing on their desk, and the way in which, you know, they're working on projects. We've, had a number of client happy hours, nobody would, you know, bat an eye for a second to sort of take a client out to happy hour to talk about what's going on with them. But it almost seemed a little awkward, you know, to have a virtual happy hour where you'd raise a glass with, you know, a client contact or a friend.
And now I think I've probably been on more than a dozen virtual happy hours, and, you know, to have conversations to see what people are are dealing with, and one of the things I think that I've really encouraged people to think about so much of client development is about in relationship development is about finding commonality. And so whether you like to read books, or you like to travel, or you like sports, or a particular sports, and if it's football, or whatever that is, and in this pandemic, has really given us, you know, one thing that we've all experienced, and we've experienced it in different ways, and sort of how it's impacted us, it's certainly been different, but that's an element of commonality. It's like a easy conversation starter to, you know, sort of break the ice, like, oh, are, you know, are you guys back to the office? Or not? Are you working remotely a couple days a week? Or are you there the entire time, are you guys enforcing masks at your office right now or not. All that is asy sort of coffee fodder for you to sort of see like how you're dealing with that. For good or bad, like, people got a lot of opinions about that. And so you can then hear what those opinions are and kind of build off of that and have a conversation to sort of develop some report and then sort of lead into some of the challenges that they're facing in the workplace. And hopefully, Baker Donelson can help them solve some of the challenges that they're facing.
Jennifer
I think one really interesting thing that we've seen is that there's a whole group of folks who are more comfortable in this environment, to go to Chicago on a whim sort of thing and there's a whole group of folks who love this and are making their way through this. We've also seen that there's there's a lot of folks who find that this environment is easier or more convenient. Introducing their colleagues. And so instead of having a colleague feel like they're taking a day to get to Chicago to see someone, why don't you get on quickly with me, I'll introduce you to Adam will talk through his practice and kind of how I'm thinking he might be able to help you. And that's a very seamless thing for folks to do. And so not so much a fancy tactic as it is just we found new things that people find as their way of doing things.
Rachel
Yeah, I think the thing that I find really interesting, just listening to your guys's experience is just things have changed a lot. But some things haven't changed. Like, I think one of the big sort of things people were worried about being in the pandemic was Are we going to be able to do like make remote work actually work. And I think you know that giving out Starbucks cards and still being able to get the interaction like with the, with the virtual happy hours and the coffee, you can still do all those things, but we'll do it in a more efficient way. You know, you might not fly halfway across the country to do it. So I think, yeah, that's gonna be a pretty big positive change moving forward, that we can actually make remote work actually happen. We are wondering if you could speak a little bit about how your firm has typically used D&I efforts to engage with clients. And you know what exactly D&I efforts are and how you've made that work.
Jennifer
That was actually you know, a little bit of fortuitous timing, I suppose on our part, we have a new CEO who has been in place for a couple of years now. And one of his main initiatives was to take our prior D&I efforts which were which were very solid in the industry, but she ramp those up with some very significant commitments on our firm's part. So we rolled out a D&I compact, which sort of projects our firm's goals through 2025 with respect to D&I and we set out some really very clear numerical expectations for ourselves to have at least 20% diverse attorney's in our firm, 10% diverse shareholders, 8% diverse equity shareholders and 10% diverse management team. And we have been methodically working toward incremental parts of those goals, we actually have a very significant document that we have shared both on our website and with many of our clients proactively, to show them what we're doing. We have a lot of clients who have a lot of diversity commitments of their own, and we want to be able to help them meet those, you know, some of the things that make diverse attorneys successful, certainly includes good work.
Adam
Jennifer alluded to some of the goals that we have, but it's difficult to hit those goals if you don't know where you are. And so part of what we've done, you know, in that is a client specific dashboard that we can roll out and then that we share with our clients. D&I is one of those areas that I think we all recognize that we can all be better in that space. And so to have some of those metrics, as well as some of the more specific and concrete things that we can do, you know, to do that, coupled with data, I think, is been something that our clients have been appreciative of, because it is an area that I think has been important for everybody. I mean, who's gonna say diversity isn't important, but without sort of a clear roadmap and some specificity to it, I think, you know, we're not going to get to where we need to be as a firm and candidly, as an industry.
Rachel
So we also have sort of a Q&A section here. So if you guys have any questions for us, we'd be happy to dive into those as well.
Adam
Well, you know, you mentioned before that the, you know, attorney client relationship is sort of paramount in any law firm success. And given that y'all are talking to other law firms and other industries, you know, maybe give us an example of how you've heard firms wowing their clients.
Jess
Giving them valuable content, valuable information. That's always number one. I have prior experience working in a law firm, I think there's this general distrust for attorney offices. And when you give them that invaluable information that can help them I mean, that just creates an instant bond, so to speak, that they're more comfortable working with attorneys, and the fact that you guys take that extra initiative to do like the coffees or you know, the quick virtual meeting that can help them right away. I mean, that is gonna completely solidify that client with your firm moving forward. You know, they'll refer anybody to your office, once you show them that you're there to help them and help them understand things that are pretty complex to understand. Another tactic we've seen Law Offices use are the webinars - we have a legal events calendar on the site. I feel like we've been cranking out tons of events on there so that people can learn something new in a specific area of interest and get that information from the professionals that really know their way around that topic. I think those are the two biggest ways that clients will definitely always keep coming back because they're wowed by that effort.
Jennifer
So what are you hearing from in House Counsel about changes in their buying patterns?
Rachel
Recently, we did an article on some of the takeaways from the Thomson Reuters marketing partner forum, a lot of information was shared just on, you know, legal spend after COVID, or during COVID, or how it's going to change moving forward. And some of the big takeaways from some of the attendees included just like pivoting and adopting new technologies. So as we discussed, the shift from in person events to virtual ones, basically gave law firms the opportunity to sort of try these new strategies without making much of a financial investment. And then also one of the things that sort of came out of it was the chance for legal marketers and law firms really show their value to clients and sort of plan for more sustainable growth moving forward. So that basically includes, you know, like an increased focus on analytics, sharing readership data with people. We have a pretty robust analytics system here on our website that our clients can use to really show what articles are doing well, like, what are the trends? Where are people reading these articles? How are they accessing them? Are they sharing them on social media? And from what we heard at the event was attournies are really looking for more of that data of how you know we're doing all these articles. We're doing these webinars, but what is the payoff of this stuff? So that's really the two big takeaways that we've seen in terms of that.
Adam
How do you think firms can really set themselves apart from other firms in the marketplace to differentiate themselves?
Jess
So that's certainly a good question. When you have either very large law firms where you're spread out across the country, you really get in that competitive market of how do I look different, you know, how do I come up on a search may be better, a lot of that is SEO tactics. I think it's also the way the content is shared with the clients, usually you can tailor your marketing and your social media presence to what your identity is, as a law firm, sometimes having a more personal edge to it can be helpful. Especially with COVID, or work life balance, working from home or partial flexibility in a law office environment. You know, if you share working from home, it's nice to be in touch with clients at any time, you know, that shows that you're more willing, you're right there to support them, when you're more personable in that attorney client relationship that also builds that trust that we kind of went over earlier, just because they're not talking to a robot attorney, they're talking to somebody who understands where they're coming from, and sharing a lot of that on social media with a professional spin can really draw them in and then keep following you makes that client come back over and over and looks at the content that you're taking the time to put out there, identifying your business values and creating a brand identity, it's going to be the best way to stand out compared to other law firms who maybe are doing a more generic post here and there. And also just continuing that attorney client relationship, you know, a follow up after a webinar, something that's recurring, that people can keep seeing, and they feel like they're still in touch with you no matter what, it's not a once and done Oh, the attorney, you know, worked with me on this and that's it, you know, they want to keep coming back. And that also benefits the law firm to have these clients return as well.
Jennifer
You know, I think one of the biggest challenges for firms at this point is the transitory nature of the industry. And it's it's attempting to you to get and retain the best talent. And so what are some some things that you're hearing that firms are doing to attract and retain top talent?
Rachel
Yeah, that's a great question. And I think it's one that we're also paying attention to here at the NLR. Jess and I and one of our other colleagues, we recently did an article on changes law firms are adopting amid the covid 19 pandemic. And that includes trends and remote work and litigation. And I think one of the big things that I just keep hearing is that remote work is definitely here to stay. I think, even if attorneys are only coming in the office a couple days a week. I think a lot of attorneys want to keep at least some part of that remote setup. Because I think what the pandemic has showed us that remote work can actually work and that that's something that attorneys like and not even just attorneys, a lot of other people in other industries want to keep working remotely. And one of the things that we've seen is that some attorneys will consider either leaving their firm or finding a new job that will allow them to have that flexability.
Jess
I know we've talked to a law firm before and that was one of the managing partners big changes that she had to implement was the flexibility. Some law firms may not be comfortable working completely from home, but having some type of flexible work schedule. It's very attractive to most people at this point. Remote work was probably pretty close to being unheard of unless you had a very particular type of job. I feel like that's completely flipped on its head now because the pandemic.
Rachel
Jennifer and Adam, thank you again for joining us.
Adam
Absolutely.
Jennifer
We're very appreciative for your having us and sharing your information and ideas with us.
Rachel
Thank you for listening to the National Law Review Legal News Reach podcast. Be sure to follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts for more episodes. For the latest legal news, or if you're interested in publishing and advertising with us visit www.natlawreview.com. We'll be back soon with our next episode.
Rachel Popa and Jessica Scheck contributed to this content.
