Hiring and Marketing in the Legal Industry with Roy Sexton of Clark Hill Law and Legal Marketing Association [PODCAST]
Thor's hammer, "Mjollnir!" Attorneys with dogs! Superman t-shirts! Roy Sexton leads a lively discussion about how the little quirks make your law firm more attractive to new hires, current staff, and the audience of your marketing efforts. He shares his career anecdotes and Clark Hill Law's recent branding revamp while being frank about the need for a new type of law firm culture. Learn more about the Legal Marketing Association here.
We've included a transcript of our conversation below, transcribed by artificial intelligence. The transcript has been lightly edited for style, clarity, and readability.
Hello, and welcome to Legal News Reach, the official podcast for the National Law Review. Stay tuned for a discussion on the latest trends in legal marketing, SEO, law firm best practices, and more.
Rachel & Jessica 00:15
I'm Rachel. And I'm Jessica. We're the Co-Hosts for The National Law Review's Legal News Reach podcast.
In this episode, we're excited to talk to Roy Sexton, Director of Marketing for Clark Hill, about hiring and legal marketing. Roy would you like to introduce yourself?
Roy Sexton 00:30
Sure, I think you're gonna regret having me as a guest. But I'm Roy Sexton, Director of Marketing. I'm also an active volunteer with the Legal Marketing Association, recently named President-elect for 2022, and President in 2023. Again, probably something they will live to regret. But I'm very honored to have been tapped in that way.
Congratulations. As I mentioned earlier, one of the topics that we really want to dive into here is hiring and marketing trends in the legal industry, I think there's been a lot of interesting hiring and sort of labor/employment topics to come out out of the pandemic. In particular, specifically, how it's getting harder to hire people, you know, retaining people that we do have, and just how COVID maybe long term will affect labor in this country and employment and hiring and all those things. In terms of the difficulty that midsize firms are finding it hard to hire lawyers on their legal staff. Is that a trend that you're seeing? And if so, like, how can offices really remedy that issue?
Roy Sexton 01:30
Yeah, obviously it's a trend we're seeing in the industry. But fortunately, we're not seeing it at Clark Hill. I had a recent opening in our team. And it's for an events role. So presumably there are a lot of people out there that in the event space that we're looking so I'm not going to put you know, you got to think about what, again, each submarket of the hiring market, right, and what's influencing that, but in this case, we had like 85 applicants all pretty strong. And when I've had positions posted before I get me like 2030. So again, it's an event so that's probably driving that as well. I think we as a firm have really pushed culture, we launched our new brand in May. And my boss Susan Hearn, who's a genius and wonderful because performance reviews are coming up soon. I love you. She, you know, she had the wisdom with our chief HR officer Kathy Sullivan, to say, when we launched that brand, let's take the values that we usually keep for internal purposes and make them the spotlight on the brand. So we push that hard. And we did a lot of video asset creation about the firm generally the culture we are because we knew our clients and prospects would say that's a nice place. Those seem like good people, I want to work with them. And I think we now that our second phase of the brand launch, launched about a week or so ago was a talent brand specifically. And we have Kathy with a video that's gotten like 60,000 views on our social media so far, talking about, "these are our values, we believe in them." And at Clark Hill, everyone has an equal footing. I mean, I think we know law firms struggle with that kind of upstairs-downstairs thing. If you're not an attorney. Well, you're just you're dispensable and you don't be treated with the same level of respect. I think clerk Hill has tried to intentionally take a different tack in that regard. And the attorneys are there with us. I mean, it's not like we're trying to sell them on an idea that they themselves don't believe. They are there already. So we've fortuitously pulled from the culture, we already had clerk Hill has grown through acquisition. So we had a lot of different regions that came together to be Clark Hill. And it was important for us to go forward or the brand that told the firm story, elevated, everyone, and said, "I'm part of a bigger family here." And I think, knock-on-wood, our recruiting efforts have benefited from that kind of message. So you know, I don't want to, you know, spoil the secret sauce. But for those firms that are facing that conundrum, everyone always says, Oh, we've got a great culture. Well, show it, demonstrate it, use video, use photos. This is my home, I'm in the basement. My husband sent me down here 19 months ago, and I haven't come back. But you know, we in the early days of pandemic, I had my dog here beside me the whole time and my social media person, Tommy said, Hey, let's do a four-legged coworkers campaign. And we did and we got so much response from that we were posting dogs not and you're like oh, and Facebook, right? I think LinkedIn. Interestingly, a year later, LinkedIn now has dogs of LinkedIn. Have you noticed this? They promoting that and I'm like they stole our idea. After we went through about six weeks to this one person in the firm said, should we be doing that? That doesn't really seem like something we should be promoting. I said Well, too late. It's over. It's said to people, this is who we are. We're human beings. We do good work showing our humanity does not detract from our ability to do good work. It enhances it. And I think that's what the pandemic has hopefully shown people that are willing to listen.
I mean I dunno about Jess, but I'm all for more dog photos in general.
Yes. Spoiled pets!
Roy Sexton 04:54
I also benefit as a manager from previous experience. I worked in healthcare for a decade and that's fraught with its own challenges in the healthcare system I worked at had a Leadership Academy and I took every class I could and I loved it. And it was very much about, listen to your team, help them succeed. Find you have a job description, you have the talent, but find the path for them. So they see they have a career and potential. One of my early management memories is I had taken over marketing at this healthcare system, and they had an outboard Remember, you're too young to remember those. It was like, it was a whiteboard, and it had little magnets or like I'm in, I'm out. And I had an exceptionally talented person who did our radio show all this stuff. She loved working from home, this is about 15 years ago. And I said, Fine, you can work from the moon, I don't care. If you're doing good work. I don't care. Now look where we are. Well, she would always like to write on the board. I am working from home. So a colleague came in, who managed the quality and accreditation and was that kind of busy body of the of the health system. And she looked at that in whiteboard. And she kind of made a mental note and walked away. And later she goes, Roy, I got a call on the hotline. Do you have people working from home? I'm like, Maureen, you did not get a call on the hotline, you saw that board. So what I did is I walked out of my office and I said, "Hey, Barb, does this come off the wall?" And I ripped the whiteboard off the wall, I said, Yep, comes off the wall. So I solved for the problem a little differently. Lisa continued to work from home, I'm sure it was in violation of some policies and processes, but she was doing good work. And to change that, because someone was being a busybody in the organization was going to hurt the outcomes of the organization. You know, I'm not advocating people ignore the rules of their organization, don't get me wrong, but understand your talent in what they need. And if they shine in a certain environment, let them be there. And don't worry about what time they'd showed up. And because they're gonna give you more than you ever expected, but if you manage for style and time and what they were, and when they showed up and how many hours they were in, they're only going to give you that they're not going to give you any more.
I think that level of trust is really important. I think when they feel they can be trusted to sort of do that in their own way. And yeah, in the way that makes them work better. I think that's something I hope many industries learn from this pandemic.
Roy Sexton 07:15
I don't want to seem ageist, I do think we have generational issues. And it depends on your leadership and what they're comfortable with. We are used to our cell phones and zoom in all these different ways that I can, you know, for 15 years now, I basically could do my job remotely, wherever and whatever I was doing, because there are those tools. So their assumption is, we all know what we know, they assume nobody's doing anything because you're not here in a suit and tie. No, it's a little harder for a manager. But it's so much more rewarding to focus on the outcomes. So you learn your talent, you learn their limitations, you help them fly, you don't overly critique them until they're ready. You can calibrate but let people get the foundation, let them be safe, folks who want to be here in a suit and tie if that's what you want, you come in, but don't expect that of everybody. You have to focus on the individual. And if they have talent, where are they going to shine the best, and it's a job. And I appreciate that I work in a culture that has its rules, they follow the protocols, they ask you to commit to well, what are you doing to create a culture that people want to be part of, and it's going to solve itself?
You touched on this a little earlier in terms of bringing people into new roles, training them. And we touched a little bit on hiring, one of the things that we wanted to ask you about is what are your thoughts on hiring professional staff with like no experience in the legal industry, and what are the advantages and the disadvantages of that?
Roy Sexton 08:41
I think people get very linear and they're like, Well, you only have these criteria, you don't qualify for this. You don't have to talk to the universe of people, some people just aren't the right fit, but look at their personalities as much as the background they have. And I think you gain a lot. Somebody should at least have lawyers in their family. If you're going to work for a law firm, you got to fit the personality is unique. Doctors have a unique challenge in that they love risk, but they love data. So if you're working in marketing with doctors go in with enough data that they see you. You did some scientific method of this. Yeah, sure. Okay. Great. With lawyers, I went to I went in with data, because that's what I knew from healthcare, oh, I barely left the room alive, because all they saw was risk and possibility. They want to avoid risk. You know, there's some things you learn about the culture quickly, that that's the only thing I would say if you're going to hire somebody. And you have a very difficult law firm culture, a very demanding group of attorneys, you might want to grab somebody who's at least worked with lawyers in some aspects. I don't need to know the nuance of what the litigator is doing. But I need to know why it's important, what audience you're trying to reach. And then trust me to figure out the channels, the mechanisms and all that to do and sometimes attorneys jump into that they want to tie your hands and say I want to sponsor this rodeo because I'm going to get all this stuff out. I'm like, That's a stupid idea, I can't say that, I have to say, well, they could do that. Or you could do this, I don't think you need to have a law firm background, at least for roles like mine. I hate it when people say it's not rocket science, what we do is difficult, let's not minimize that it is as hard as rocket science. Because it's people, it's relationships, and you never know what you're getting when you walk in the door with somebody. But if you have some emotional intelligence, you have the chops to communicate to right, you understand the digital channels that are available to us. And you have the sensitivity to appreciate. This very busy person who has an attorney is very stressed out, and they're not mad at you, they just don't know what you're talking about. And you have to have the patience and the calm and the kindness to understand what's important to them, you can work very well. So that's kind of what I look for when I'm interviewing people. I don't get hung up on if they've worked in a law firm before. But if I feel like they're a bad culture fit, and they haven't worked in a law firm, and they don't have the skills, and I said to somebody yesterday, you don't want to work in a law firm, you've worked in retail, most other places don't do it.
That focus on interpersonal skills is something that I think, in the past has been undervalued. Yeah, sort of going off of what you said earlier, in terms of you know, you're in college, you had an arts degree, I mean, think just my both have parts degrees, in some sense. And I also have a partner that has a STEM degree. And you know, there's sort of like this dichotomy of like, those very hard math and science skills like, yeah, aren't always what you need to succeed, a lot of times it is learning how to talk to people and form relationships and things like that.
So when we think about the increasing conflation of a firm, like their operations that are changing- your cultural changes, what do you see as the role of a marketing professional in the market that exists now?
Roy Sexton 11:51
I think we're in a unique opportunity, and a really strong one, you know, people, people fixate on the AI as an abstraction versus something that just needs to be the reality. When you think about the AI, or when you think about wellness or any of these topics, that confluence of law firms are struggling, we need to fix our culture, we need to have representation, we need to have legitimate, you know, put people in leadership roles that look like us on this call, you know, there are people of color there, you know, so people see themselves in the leadership ranks, and they'll stick around. So if you make that change, now take the victory lap for marketing, tell people about it don't don't suddenly get shy. I'm celebrating a leader who's creating great change. I'm celebrating young people who are being seen, their friends and family are like, wow, that's a neat organization. And, again, you have to see that larger, you know, Disney, Apple, those companies do a good job of creating an environment you want to be part of, if you can steal some of that, as a law firm, don't get so focused on I want a case tell everybody I won that case, it's going to get me business. Okay, maybe. But if they see what kind of organization it is the culture change that's happening, the fact that good work is coming out of that organization, then you're going to attract talent, you're going to attract customers, you're going to have a sustainable model. And I do think sometimes people are just so linear in their thinking they miss that that broader storytelling, opportunity. So you know, I think we're in a unique place. I also think the other side of the coin, I'm going to get real, technical, we have so much data available to us right now. We have so many tools. It is a marketer's dream right now that we have to work with, we don't have to go to outside agencies, sorry, service providers to do stuff. Use data in that way, again, to drive change in the culture to drive engagement. And these digital channels, you're, you're using them beautifully. I mean, I really, when I saw Jennifer Scholler, at ALM, she was overwhelmed with the response that has come from your platform. In recent months. This is it's off the charts, because you got good content, you're reaching people, you're putting it out there in smart and clever ways. And you have a following. And people then gravitate, you know, they gravitate to where there's a following, so.
I'm so glad you mentioned how the legal industry does have the weird, high walls around it. Sometimes I think there's such a particular hierarchy in a law firm in general. So the fact that you know, we all know people want to connect with people. So if you keep just having these tall walls of legality, I guess. Preventing people from wanting to connect with you. That's why I mean, over and over. If we beat anything into this podcast, it's that people want to know a law firm. They want to know the people. That makes them want to go to you in the first place.
Roy Sexton 14:47
I switched my LinkedIn picture the other day and I switched it back but I had one of me and a Superman t-shirt. Somebody took me I loved it. And I got so much great response to that but I got some people inside from like, Do you think that's really the professional look you want to be going for and I second-guessed myself, I changed the picture. And then I resented myself for it, finding those moments of authenticity. That's what people respond to. And I think we get so worried in law firms are rife with this law firms want to be first to be second, like, they don't wanna be the first one to do anything, in case it's too risky. But they want to be right there at second, we'll be the first, no one's paying that much attention anyway, you're not going to, you're not going to ruin your organization, anybody who comes at you with a phrase, you need to be taken seriously run away from them, because they're worried about the wrong, none of us need to be taken seriously. We need to do good work, we need to be accessible, we need to have fun and enjoy the lives that we're living. And those people who say those things to you, they're nervous themselves, they want to be out of their own shell.
It's just that old environment, like what you're saying about employees, you know, there are the ones who want to wear the suit and come in, and that's fine. But that's because that's who they are. Yeah, and you should be okay with that, if that's what you want to do. You know, but also the same has to go for people who want to work remote, and yeah, have Thor's hammer behind them. You know what I mean? Like, I just feel like, I'm hiring the attorney that posts dog photos. That's something I can connect with. And yeah, I think that attorneys in particular, so before this, I was a paralegal for a couple of years. So I've worked around attorneys a lot. And I think the, it's that competition with each other, you know, you got to be the best you got to put up your Super Lawyers because people won't take you seriously. I don't know why that idea persists.
Roy Sexton 16:32
So I realize it come into a room. And it's easy for me to say I don't need to worry about being taken seriously, because I have the latitude to have Thor's hammer behind me. And it's colorful, somebody else who's coming maybe and nobody knows I'm gay unless I tell him but I tell everybody, I have the latitude to be a little more myself. And I appreciate that some of what I'm saying may not work for people who have been in marginalized groups or who have felt, I'm speaking to two women. And so I'm going to mansplain back to you the experience you've had my husband, I were talking about this last night, he had a colleague who posted something about I'm part of this women's group, and I'm so grateful for their support. And my husband's kind of manager who literally does not see gender color. He just sees talent. He's a wonderful human being in that regard. He goes, does that do people really need those groups still, I go, honey, you're different than everybody else. A lot of women have had to go through hell. We saw it in the "Me Too" movement, things that we never knew or heard about. It happened behind closed doors, slights that happen, the marginalization that happened. So I realize there is an element sometimes if I wear the outfit everybody else is wearing, it gives me entree to then be myself, try to help us try to break down that need in an environment. If you knew the hurdles you had to overcome to get into your role, break them down for other people don't let that continue. Because it's unnecessary.
I want to know because I'm sure law firms now with all these changes are getting so...not frightened- that might be too strong of a word, but they're very cautious about things in general, you know, the risk, the risk management part of that is definitely a little bit. But when it comes to how you're doing things with marketing, you know, how are you using like numbers to show that the work you're doing is effective? You know, how are you doing that to reassure firms that yeah, you know, the necessity of it.
Roy Sexton 18:32
So we use Power BI as a sort of a baseline, we're doing a lot of analysis through what we use sprout for social media. I'm not I'm not advertising to these people. I'm just saying that's what we use. We're working with ALM right now sorry, on some direct advertising. And and, and that's giving us that ability to target and figure out who we're reaching when we're reaching and how we're reaching them. Were really, with the new launch of the new website and brand, we stepped up our SEO, and we're working with a partner there that isn't just doing the SEO for us. They're teaching our team how to do it correctly. So we have a monthly report that we send out to the firm, that's more anecdotal. But he always take those laps, put yourself back in front of the firm going, here's everything that happened this month, half of them read it, we get some nasty grams too long, didn't read fonts too small, that kind of stuff. But mostly they're like, we're here. And now on a weekly basis, we send another digest, like, here's how many alerts went out. Here's how many events. So those are your kind of leading indicators that people go, there's some kinetics happening and social media is really helpful that way.
For our next topic, we want to focus in more on what Clark Hill has been doing in recent months, like you mentioned specifically earlier that the firm, create a new brand and focused on you know, the sort of value in the culture-aspects of it. How did that process go and what can law firms learn from?
Roy Sexton 19:48
The pandemic served us well, it gave us more time. We had a very aggressive timeline that I don't know that we would have hit before. It gave us more months to dig in, and really what we had done in the development of brand- we worked with One North on the brand and the website. And we had a lot of listening and learning outposts. That was important to me. And it was important to my boss. And so we had a survey of everybody in the firm, not just attorneys, and we got like an 80% response rate with like, a shortlist of questions. What do you think the brand is? What do you hear that? You know, because we were bringing a culture together too. And then we went externally, we did client interviews, what do you think of the brand? What do we do? Well, what don't we do, we baked all that together. So we did the discovery piece of it to then move to well, What messages do we think are a reflection of who we are, and then what's our stretch to what we want to be, and we took the time to go through that process. And then we landed on a brand, we then with the pandemic, we had the moment to step back and go, Okay, we didn't think we're gonna be able to go through all the content on the website like we wanted to, we do. So let's use the Education own moment here. Rather than just marketing, go rewrite everything and put it up. We use this as an educational opportunity with our BD folks and everybody to divvy up all the bios, we had a new structure to it, we had a headline, we did that intentionally, like let's create a structure that forces a rewrite of the BIOS. So then we had the time to do a bio project. And Alex, France and Tommy on our team, they, they set it all up, they put a video together, we went to each business unit said, This is what we're trying to do, the voice we're trying to capture. We got pushback, we got people that didn't want to do it for mostly though people. And the attorneys themselves took a swing at it. We use the development of the brand and the website very collaboratively, we delegated everybody got some time in it. We worked with all the operational areas in the brain lunch, we had an extensive process. Cheryl Kravitz helped us with a timeline of HR, you're doing this, it you're doing this, it's not just only marketing things, everybody gets a piece of this. And at the end of it, we had a celebration, everybody got a swag box, we wanted to make sure everybody wherever they were got a box of new branded stuff, we had a wonderful video that tells studios put together of who we are telling our story. I'm an opportunist, and I'm cheap. So I'm like, we want to do a video that will work internally. And then I can slice it up and put it externally people didn't understand what the hell I was talking about until we did it. They were like, well, this is for we want to talk about internal things. They go no, no, just inspire people. We can have some framing stuff from our leaders, but just inspire people. And then we'll have that out in the world. We had like 370,000 views of that video, when all was said and done. It was thrilling. And we told our story, but we took time to have everybody feel like they were part of it. So when we launched the brand, not many people had seen it. But they felt like they were part of it when they saw it. And that made all the difference with all the other random stuff that comes our way on a daily basis to do this correctly, and make it launch where you don't have 1,000 knives in your back. Give yourself two years and really open up the process where you can have people feel like they were part of it.
Yeah, I think what you're saying how the pandemic helps move things along is not uncommon. In terms of like the interviews we've done so far. I think a lot of law firms have said that the pandemic really pushed them to make these changes. And these changes were something that were in the pipeline for a while, and they just forced to move forward with them because they didn't have any other choice. So that's sort of that sort of leads into my next question here, when you were doing this and doing this branding and all this other stuff, and you launched it, you know, what has really been the response that
Roy Sexton 23:25
It was overwhelming. They were minor hiccups. And what I love about my boss is just a Roy, just take a pause, it's fine, don't don't catastrophize it's gonna be fine. Just We'll get through it. It's not a big deal. So sometimes you gotta listen on the things that don't matter, really like the font of that email, and give. And then you have the big win. And by God, everybody loved the stuff that mattered the brand, they were so hungry for it. They had felt included, we done enough lead up to it, they knew it was coming, they loved the look, they felt elevated, that's what you want with a brand. They felt like the brand that they'd had and inherited. And again, these were four or five different separate firms that have come together, Clark Hill inherited an old Clark Hill brand that even Clark Hills unlike anymore, seven felt like they needed new clothes for school. They so you gave them something fresh. And the video that was embedded with all these faces from all over the country, again, my boss's wisdom, because I was like, well, let's just have two or three people. Let's make this easy. And she was No, no, Roy, we got to figure out how to get to six different locations and have a lot of people interviewed. She was right. Because people saw themselves in the story. And the response we got internally was exactly what we wanted. People quieted down. Their obsession was signage and all this stuff that they were driving us all crazy because they were like, Oh, you have this in hand. It gave us the credibility and all the other things to like, Oh, you guys actually know what you're doing? Yeah, we do. And then the external response was, like I said with the video itself had 300 I think 375,000 views and the response from people outside the firm, because lawyers will never tell you that they'll tell you when someone Outside the firm is teasing us. But they don't tell you when they hear the good stuff. But I know they did. I know they heard from people outside going, Wow, you guys woke up, you're doing interesting stuff. And and that's what we wanted. You know we're having a record year again, many law firms are having a record year again. So I can't chalk it up to the brand and the website necessarily, but I feel like we landed a market and brand message just when we needed it at the right time to galvanize the organization to help us move forward. With strong leadership. Our CEO has been there every step of the way and supportive he was part of the brand launch, she has reinforced the things we needed him too. He's challenged us when we needed to be challenged. My boss has seen the long game. I've had an incredible team of people whenever Anderson, she I feel like I'm giving an Oscar speech came in under budget way under budget, and on time, which is unheard of, and I'm very proud of that
We spoke a little earlier was the importance of diversity and creating diverse teams. Can you speak a little bit about you know, what Clark Hill has done to do that, and like why it's important?
Roy Sexton 26:01
Part of the DNA of the organization, our Texas offices that came online a couple years ago, Strassburger, they had a really robust program, they called it bold thrive and pride. I think we're sort of evolving. I think affinity groups are important, but sometimes they almost think they also do some disservice. It's like, I feel this way, sometimes all you gay people get together and go do stuff and talk and it's like, Well, okay, but we need to, we need to demonstrate to everyone else, we have value. But those are that we brought those in and again made them part of this launch that we had attorney leaders now, not just in Texas, but across the country who are driving those efforts. Pride is obviously for our LGBTQ community. Thrive is for people of color. And then bold is our women's initiative. But somewhat, they're all a bit inwardly focused, because you're trying to provide talent, tools, resources, and commiseration to people who are in those groups that work for the firm. But we've also started to extend that out to say, well, what are the programmatic offerings we can provide to demonstrate we're committed to this, the education pieces, it's, it's gonna sound like small potatoes, but it was a big impact. Alex France on my team, she looked at the calendar and all of the events that are important both as recognition months, as well as the holidays, based on faith and culture and all those things. And so we have a an intentional message that goes on, we have an editorial calendar against that. And we've also used as an engagement strategy with our HR folks. So for, for example, Asian Asian American Pacific Islanders month, we had Alex and glory pack who was with us at the time, they put together little placards, we put on our social media with a story or a video component with people in their own words. And again, we didn't live in it to attorneys, it's paralegals, it was office managers, it was legal assistants, anybody who was in that category, or felt strongly about that and wanted to had something to offer, we made sure we were telling their stories on our digital channels. And then we circulated that internally. Now that all feels a little window dressing, you know, to get to the substantive issues our leadership team is actively looking at, how are we recruiting? Who are we putting in what roles how are we promoting and actively assessing that data to say, you know, are we using the Mansfield rubric, we don't have enough hear or in some cases, we've actually been pleasantly surprised, because I think you always feel like you're not doing enough. And then you look at some of it, and you're like, Oh, we're actually we've been more intentionally we even realized. So Linda Watson, who's one of our attorneys has been leading that effort with HR, and they're relatively early in that journey. But you know, they're taking it quite seriously. When I was in health care, we went, we did something called the Malcolm Baldrige assessment, which is a quality piece, and some people do it just to win the award, we did it to actually improve. And Clarksville is doing that same thing with Mansfield, it's like, of course, we want the recognition. But we want to use the criteria to get better. And I'm thrilled to see that, you know, I'm not involved in it other than this communication stuff I talk about, but what I'm seeing the firm do, I'm really pleased about. So
I think it's just great to highlight those things on this podcast, I think being able to learn from what others have done and be able to apply it to actually helps make change.
Roy Sexton 29:12
Well, and that's why I've always loved being part of LMA. I mean, I don't know if the attorneys know this. But when we all get together we tell everybody what we're doing. Right? Don't do that. Well, it's there's what you do, and there's how you do it. So it's it's always good to see what other people are doing. Because then you can take that idea and build on it. And then they can build on your idea and you just get better. You know, there's always live in abundance, not scarcity. And so you're right, look at what other people are doing. go think about that. We should do some of that. But let's do it our way. Let's take the idea and do it in our style. And then you're not stealing from anybody so
Excellent. So yeah, we've had a great conversation with you today. Right. We really appreciate you joining us. A special thanks to Roy Sexton from Clark Hill for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
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Rachel Popa and Jessica Scheck contributed to this content.